Customer Service from Nosler!

[edge]

Please fire the CS manager!

I asked a simple question:

What is the minimum twist for the 150 grain 30 caliber AccuBond?

I often shoot in temperatures near zero F. @ around 2900 fps.

Thanks in advance.

This seems like a simple enough question for a bullet manufacturer...Berger lists it next to their bullets!

NOT for Nosler! They send me a link to JBM.
So I follow their link but you need information about the bullet so I ask:

OK, this seems strange that the manufacturer can't give me the answer, but I'll play your game

To calculate the twist on that website I will need from you:

1) the nose length;
2) the ogive radius;
3) the meplat diameter;
4) the boattail length;
5) secant or tangent ogive;
6) boattail base diameter.

Thank you in advance.

At this point you might think that they would just do the math themselves, but instead they write back:

The stability formula at the bottom of the page only requires bullet length, diameter and weight.

This is basically Greenhill and does not give a MINIMUM twist as I had originally asked!
Heck, at 60 degrees it suggests a 1:12 twist and I know that a 1:14 easily works almost down to 30F!!

Even if the 1:12 is the number they want to quote me that is fine, just write back we recommend a 1:12 twist and then add "here is a link for your future usage...but feel free to ask us if you prefer"

Lots of folks are out of work, it might be time to clean house at Nosler!

edge.

 

[Guest]

Edge, they answered the question you asked. Learn how to communicate effectively and you won't have this problem.

 

[edge]

Here are two 100 yard 10 shot groups using this bullet in a 1:14 twist muzzleloader.

The top group is about as good as I can shoot and the bottom group was shot as fast as I could shoot, swab, reload and get off ten shots!

Why is it that you, just another shooter, would take the time to write what you did and the Customer Service department couldn't be bothered!

They could say we recommend a 12 or 13 or whatever, they did not even offer the OAL in their reply!!
Presumably I am asking the question because I want to buy their product, why would they assume I know the OAL?

edge.

 

[edge]

I did forget to mention that I wanted a more precise twist calculation.

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmdrag-5.1.cgi

The one on JBM I wanted to use needs the SG of the bullet.
Since the AccuBond has a plastic tip and also a very thick jacket the SG is different from that of a Berger type J4 jacket!

edge.

 

[Guest]

Edge, I wasted too much time trying to explain this to you. Pearls before swine...

 

[bullet]

Good job dubyam, and yes if the right question is asked or they actually understand what is being asked they will go out of their way to answer the question. I enjoyed reading your response.

 

[JD338]

edge,

You got more information from Nosler than Berger!

What you are asking for is not a straight forward answer because of the variables.Temp, Twist Rate, Bar. Pressure will all have an impact on the answer.
SAAMI spec for .308 is 1:12 twist. Using JBM Calculations and taking your 150 gr BT at 2900 fps @ 40.0*F gives you 1.302 and is in the Green Zone. Perfect! Now @ 00.0*F you get 1.19 Yellow Zone which is marginal.

By using the formula, you can determin according to your situation.

JD338

 

[edge]

Hmmm...

Me thinks that you protest too much!
Now I thought that the subject was over with, but since you guys decided to bring it back up without the facts, I will elaborate!

First, dubyam you will note that I did not use a question mark because it was not a question where I looked for an answer, but rhetorical in nature. Sorry you did not read into my meaning.

Since you chose to answer it with "That's not for calculating twist, but rather for calculating drag"
I MUST inform you that you are dead wrong!
It is labelled: Bullet Drag and Twist and it CLEARLY states that it is to:

Calculate drag and stability from bullet dimensions, weight, specific gravity and barrel twist.

Basically you kept answering from this mistaken viewpoint so the rest of your answer is completely wrong.

Perhaps if they gave a link to the Miller Formula I would not have been so disappointed with their reply, but if you go to the page they sent me to the first twist calculator is the one I tried to use AND for my question it IS the most appropriate one to use!

Now my original question gave a temperature and a velocity so a knowledgeable person, with the bullets dimensions and its SG could give a reasonable answer...obviously with some caveats.

Now, IMO it was clear that I was not happy with the original answer Nosler CS decided to double down and not give me what I specifically asked!
They didn't even offer the OAL which was REQUIRED for the twist calculations!

Sorry guys,

edge.

 

[edge]

edge,

You got more information from Nosler than Berger!

What you are asking for is not a straight forward answer because of the variables.Temp, Twist Rate, Bar. Pressure will all have an impact on the answer.
SAAMI spec for .308 is 1:12 twist. Using JBM Calculations and taking your 150 gr BT at 2900 fps @ 40.0*F gives you 1.302 and is in the Green Zone. Perfect! Now @ 00.0*F you get 1.19 Yellow Zone which is marginal.

By using the formula, you can determin according to your situation.

JD338

A 1:14 twist is fine @ 40F as long as it exits square to the bore as evidenced by my groups.
If I wanted a SAAMI spec I would not be asking the question, and in long range shooting you often want the slowest twist!
Fast twist tends to exaggerate bullet imperfections, squareness at the bore, muzzle blast, etc.

edge.

 

[JD338]

edge,

You got more information from Nosler than Berger!

What you are asking for is not a straight forward answer because of the variables.Temp, Twist Rate, Bar. Pressure will all have an impact on the answer.
SAAMI spec for .308 is 1:12 twist. Using JBM Calculations and taking your 150 gr BT at 2900 fps @ 40.0*F gives you 1.302 and is in the Green Zone. Perfect! Now @ 00.0*F you get 1.19 Yellow Zone which is marginal.

By using the formula, you can determin according to your situation.

JD338

A 1:14 twist is fine @ 40F as long as it exits square to the bore as evidenced by my groups.
If I wanted a SAAMI spec I would not be asking the question, and in long range shooting you often want the slowest twist!
Fast twist tends to exaggerate bullet imperfections, squareness at the bore, muzzle blast, etc.

edge.

You are correct, too fast a twist exaggerates bullet inperfections.
Nosler gave you the formula so you could play out your variables. If you would have given them exact data, Mike would have given you an exact answer.

JD338

 

[edge]

You are correct, too fast a twist exaggerates bullet inperfections.
Nosler gave you the formula so you could play out your variables. If you would have given them exact data, Mike would have given you an exact answer.

JD338

I asked this question:

What is the minimum twist for the 150 grain 30 caliber AccuBond?

I often shoot in temperatures near zero F. @ around 2900 fps.

Thanks in advance.

IMO, it is VERY specific!
If he needed more information he could have asked!

My first reply easily showed that I was at least a little annoyed by their reply and they just doubled down.
They could have asked a question or given a better reply...but they chose not to.

edge.

 

[FOTIS]

What is the basis for this question?

Just curious :?:

 

[bullet]

When all is said and done, anyone is way over the line to call for the firing of anyone based on an experience and their version of and exchange with a CS rep at Nosler. Frankly, one can be assured that after making an initial statement by starting their post with "Please fire the CS manager!" more than likely as far as many on this forum are concerned has probably lost credibility. People will not be impressed with a self appointed approach of suggesting that the CS manager be fired based on a single notion of the CS's performance, no matter how much the complainant seems to claim or know. And on top of that, if the complainant knew the answer as seems to be suggested by the elongated argument, why did the complainant ask the question in the first place? In fact as right as one might be on some points, he has in essence lost the debate by the very nature of his attitude. Just maybe the user name "edge" is a good one to choose when one seems to be on EDGE!!!!

 

[Guest]

Edge, you clearly are the smartest man in the room. I'm sorry I wasted my time trying to help you, as you clearly are the kind of fellow who can't be helped. My condolences.

Oh, and since you didn't like my answers, and didn't read them, I went back and shortened them up to suit you.

 

[hubcap]

I had no interest in the subject from the get go. When the thread started by saying fire the CS manager my interest went from no interest to even lesser interest. I think all nosler folks should get a raise in pay for keeping most us users happy. :grin: :grin:

 

[edge]

I had no interest in the subject from the get go. When the thread started by saying fire the CS manager my interest went from no interest to even lesser interest. I think all nosler folks should get a raise in pay for keeping most us users happy. :grin: :grin:

Then why continue other than to pile on?

Thank you also for not helping!

edge.

 

[edge]

Edge, you clearly are the smartest man in the room. I'm sorry I wasted my time trying to help you, as you clearly are the kind of fellow who can't be helped. My condolences.

Oh, and since you didn't like my answers, and didn't read them, I went back and shortened them up to suit you.

Oh, pardon me!

Your answer was off target, that is why you deleted it!

edge.

 

[edge]

What is the basis for this question?

Just curious :?:

I had trouble with accuracy at low temps and wanted to find out if it was due to:
bullet stabilization;
OR
if the problem was with my load or if I was having a problem with my sabot material becoming brittle or something sabot related.

Thanks for asking.

edge.

 

[edge]

Edge, they answered the question you asked. Learn how to communicate effectively and you won't have this problem.

What a ridiculous reply!

Sorry for your trouble RIF!

edge.

 

[bullet]

edge, settle down, apologize, admitting that it was an unnecessary statement concerning firing the CS, and lets start over dropping this issue. You obviously have some understanding of some things and could contribute to the forum, but unless you humble yourself at this time, that will not end up being the case. I hope you heed the above advice, we all make mistakes, so come on and man up and do the above. Yours truly, bullet